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I'm a firm believer in free speech. However, there are ample opportunities for venting of spleen elsewhere on the internet. I reserve the right to edit or delete comments that exceed the threshold of my tolerance for stupidity or malice.

8 Responses

  1. Jan
    Jan April 15, 2010 at 4:32 pm | | Reply

    I am not a philosopher, therefore a very useful logical argument for God’s existence from Peter Kreeft:

    (a further ELEVEN THOUSAND FOUR HUNDRED AND FORTY-NINE words follow), copied and pasted from Kreeft’s website. – JR

  2. Thomas
    Thomas December 19, 2011 at 9:37 pm | | Reply

    I appreciate your very well written and thoughtful post, Jacques, and your call for politeness. However, your decision to not engage the topic further because it is frightfully boring and vacuous, or simply “dead”, leads me to wonder why you would write this post in the first place. In the spirit of good philosophy, I wanted to bring up a few major problems in your reasoning.

    At the outset, you adopt a minimum definition of rationality that is, by definition, not rational. Rationality requires an appeal to reason that is deductive and is not based on our experience or evidence from the surrounding world. Your definition, however, is based on the idea of probability and scientific truth and evidence–it is imbued with empiricism, not rationality, and the same is true for your entire line of reasoning.

    Thus, you subject a belief in god to scientific belief. You conflate it with social morality and social practices (the death penalty, racism, sexism, the attacks on 9/11) in quite a few places to align belief in god with negative things. The reasoning, for the casual and like-minded reader is something like this: God = non-rational belief = bad social practice = bad personal practice. Belief in god, however, is a belief about existence, not a belief about rightness or wrongness. Belief in god, also, is not the same as religion.

    Now that we’ve un-muddied the philosophical waters, what your reasoning reduces to is that there is no evidence of god and that god-existence is more likely false than true, and more likely to generate “more false” beliefs. And perhaps we can, kindly, rephrase your opening question as “Does God Exist where Existence is Defined Empirically?”, because rationality has nothing to do with your argument.

    Even under this more favorable and narrowed interpretation, your argument is weak. Perhaps under the narrow Judeo-Christian view of god/God as a divine guy in the sky (even though you bring up Hinduism, etc.), you’d have a better stance. But what of those people who simply believe god exists as energy? Or of those who interpret scientific evidence as simply more evidence of god? If the villager seeing lightning strike a crop was being rational in dreaming up a god (which you admit, surprisingly), then how is that philosophically different from seeing the structure of an atom or a human’s first heartbeat or theorizing a Big Bang and similarly assuming the involvement of a god? Our methods of empiricism may now be greatly augmented by various scientific instruments, but how this experience of the world leads to beliefs is still part of the same rationalizing process. The difference between the scientist and the observant peasant is not as great as you might think.

    The problem is this: we will never “know” what a sensory experience of god would be like because god is by definition immaterial, and if god were amenable to sensory experience then science would claim that by definition that “thing” is not god. The “believers” have the convenient out of never being able to have their god tested empirically, but the “non-believers” have the out that whatever they discover about the world can be conveniently put into the “not god” box. So we are left with the difficulty of two camps, those who believe in god and those who believe in not-god, and the impossibility of reconciling them through empirical reasoning.

    Better roads exist to make an argument about belief in god or not-god, Jacques. As a non-believer, I’ve certainly explored some decent ones. But all the most frustrating arguments both for and against god-belief–and indeed the most vacuous–have been those that rest on an empirical foundation.

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